Andrew Marin, the primary blogger for Love Is an Orientation recently began a series of posts about his life in Boystown, Chicago's primary gay neighborhood. His organization, The Marin Foundation, tries to build bridges, break down stereotypes, and open up conversation between the Christian and GLBT (Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/Trangender) communities. At the very center of his ministry is the recognition that the attractional model is doomed because of Christian's actions in the past, as well as the stereotypes of both communities created in our culture. We cannot expect to bring in to our churches today a group that has been the victim of countless attacks from within the church throughout our entire history. In his book UnChristian, David Kinnamen provides countless statistics and research on the perception of the church by outsiders. At the top of his list of negative perceptions of Christianity is that it is anti-homosexual, a view held by 91 percent of the participants in the survey described in his book. To be clear, this does not mean that 91 percent of Christians are actually anti-homosexual. Rather, it means that there is a tremendously strong preconception that the Church is actively against homosexuality.
Jamie: I agree with everything you said (even the part about me throwing it in their faces) except, of course, your view of your own sexuality and what that means to God.
I have a friend who is a pretty conservative Christian who is gay. He thinks it is sin. He thinks he is sin. So, he is still trying to date girls. This,(in my opinion) thanks to the church, will cause so much pain in his life.
My “throwing it in faces” defense is more a “mother hen” reaction than anything else.
Not to mention the fact that I just plain don’t think its wrong.
Rob: anytime you want to break more comment records just let me know and I’ll swing by and stir shit up. (you see how I said a naughty word!) 🙂
Jamie, I really appreciate your comment! Thank you for openly sharing a piece of your life with us!
Jamie, I love what you had to say! Thank you so much for openly commenting!
Wow…what a ride.
I think sin is an interesting issue. How a culture views certain sins often determines how we relate to one another, particularly those engaged in those sins.
The heterosexual bed jumper is treated one way.
The christian couple who ‘do it’ before they say they say ‘We do” are treated another way.
The drug addict who keeps using and confessing is treated another way.
The Christian married couple who allow sexual escapades outside of their marital relationship but stay married are treated another way.
The girl who is a porn consumer and producer is treated another way.
And then the child molester is treated another way.
How many of these people, would we say, we hang with and love but disagree with…but wouldn’t ‘judge’ or choose to not associate with?
What’s the role of Justice in such situations in God’s eyes?
How do we outlive compassion and justice together?
Does love provide room for abusers of others to continue abusing because one doesn’t want to offend or condemn them?
So much of this depends on the culture one is living within and shaped by…take away scripture and the whole mess gets even more difficult.
BTW – we have smashed the previous record for comments on The Drum. Thanks Noah 🙂
Thank you Jamie for weighing in. I appreciate both your candor and demeanor. May we continue on in this conversation with respect. I’m glad you stopped in. Same to the rest of you…that obviously includes Ben. For those of you who don’t know – Ben and I are friends…I actually even took part in his wedding. Tough issue, good and challenging thoughts. Thanks!
This is a huge topic- one I want to respond to carefully- so I hope I don’t run too long with this. First, let me put some things out there to clarify where I am coming from.
I am a man happily & healthily married to a woman. However, my sexual orientation is bisexual, with a primary same-sex attraction. I have never pursued restorative therapies and generally believe them to be destructive. I believe that most people with same-sex attraction will live with it as a reality for the rest of their lives.
I do believe that homosexuality is inconsistent with my understanding of God’s teaching in Scripture, but also acknowledge that it is not as clear as most Christians suggest it is. I have no issue affirming the genuine faith of a sister or brother in Christ who is part of the LGBTQ community, even though we might disagree. It is not a salvific issue.
How does this impact things in church life? It is tricky. I have no issue sharing communion with them or (as a pastor) baptizing them. However, I would not perform a wedding for two same-sex people. That being said, I strongly affirm their legal right to be married (and call it marriage), as well as affirm their right to adopt. But those are other big topics.
I have many friends who are gay, lesbian or transgendered- some Christians, others not. One thing is clear- there is not one, unified, communal stance or position on how they feel about Christians. In that sense, Benfowler is both right and wrong- some agree with his position while others do not.
I believe that we can disagree on issues this personal, yet still learn to love one another and be in respectful relationship and conversation. However, it is also true that the differences in position do place certain limits (some for more than others). The fact is that the all or nothing position that Benfolwer presented is held by some, but not all (and possibly not even most).
A difficult thing for heterosexuals to understand is the problem with comparisons. For example, while I think that straight Christians need to give more attention to their own sexuality (which is generally unhealthy in the western church), we cannot make the comparisons too easily. For example, BD talked about his straight friends who sleep around- how he loves them, but still considers their actions sinful (and tells them so). However, it is one thing to tell a straight person that their sexuality is being misused or practiced outside of a healthy context, but it is quite another to tell a gay person that their sexuality is irredeemable. The stakes are much higher.
Similar challenges come to light when we compare same-sex attraction to other sins- I’ve heard people use alcoholism, drug addiction, gluttony, porn addiction, even brain damage. My plea is this: Don’t use comparisons. They are hurtful, unhelpful and inaccurate. My same-sex attraction is not an addiction caused by unhealthy behaviour (I’ve never acted out on it), it is not a self-serving, hedonistic impulse (anymore than heterosexual attraction is) and it is certainly not brain damage. The point is that we need to learn to have real conversation and real understanding.
Benfowler, you are entitled to you position, and based on the presuppositions you have shared, they make perfect sense. I often feel myself pulled in that direction as well. However, I also think that, if you genuinely want to see people healed of unhealthy understandings of Scripture/God/etc., you must be willing to respect the differences and seek to understand them where they are at. You might be right, but you won’t convince many people by throwing it in their faces.
To those who have pushed back on Benfowler, you need to recognize that he speaks a hard truth that we may not like to hear. There are some who will reject us completely as long as we hold to this view of Scripture. We also need to not too quickly judge or reject people who do so- after all, they have lived with our rejection for far longer and at much higher a price. Part of loving them will be taking the hard truths (and even attacks) they will send out way.
So much more to say, but I will leave it there.
I would like to suggest that this discussion is in danger of being declared moot simply because we seem to be using different measures. I can’t say this is necessarily true of Ben, but if you don’t take scripture at its word then you’ll never be forced to face its rejection of anything as sin.
So the question, I guess for Ben, is how do you define sin to begin with? For my part I would say scripture.
It (namely homosexuality) was punishable by death under Mosaic Law, and rejected outright by Paul in Romans for starters. So you can see how I come to the conclusion that you must not hold the Bible in any form of traditional esteem to think it not a sin. Correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t want to jump too far in my conclusions. But in the case that that’s true, what do you consider sin and how do you base your definitions?
Secondly how do you base your idea that this is something by which anyone validly identifies themselves, and how is it inextricably linked to their being as a whole? You said they were born that way, how do you know that for certain? Does my disliking or disapproving of their identifying with being GLBT mean I disapprove of them at their very core?
To draw this out into a more holistic point, let’s say someone identifies themselves as a Farmer in Farmville and honest to God believes that to be their core identity. Now if I hate Farmville do I then by extension hate them? What if they consider themselves a biker and I think that motorcycles are dangerous and foolish, or I disapprove of the connected lifestyle, does that mean I can’t love them?
I do think homosexuality is a sin like I think looking at porn is a sin and getting drunk is a sin. I won’t hide behind loose language that I think will make people like me because what’s the point of being liked for being someone who you are not? But I think there are distinctions that need to be made. First off it’s not my place to judge people outside of the church (while I can exercise judgment and know that what they are doing is wrong).
This is why I don’t feel terribly uncomfortable around my non-believing friends when they get drunk, though I do find myself readily bored. They don’t claim to live by my standard, so how could I hold them to it?
However it is my job to judge sin within the church (see Jesus’ teachings on conflict in Matthew or the whole concept of excommunication as described by Paul). This is why when my professing Christian friends get trashed I get upset. If we aren’t to hold each other to a higher standard then what’s the point of claiming to have one? If you don’t want to work at living up to it, don’t claim it.
All of that can be and must be done in love or it serves little purpose to their benefit. Love, I believe, is a choice. Not a feeling, not an emotion or a whim. I believe love carries with it those things on occasion, but often forces us to make choices and do things that provide for us no such pleasurable sensations. I say this, again, to be sure my position is well defined and we aren’t using the same words from different languages.
So maybe if you’re using a different definition of the word love you could fill me in on that too.
Finally I have to disagree with your last post as it misses the point that Noah’s trying to make, which is that I can disapprove of your biking but still hang out and shoot pool with you. Like I said, I have friends that get wasted on a regular basis but I still love them and am active in their lives. Jesus did the same thing, while he didn’t approve of prostitution or adultery he sure did spend a lot of time with those who fell into both categories.
I’ve had a handful of gay friends who I openly disagreed with and got into plenty of discussions with. They still like me somehow, and have respected my position and honesty. I would suggest that you not discount the ability to disagree in love, perhaps you’ve simply never seen it carried out properly. They would tell you to your face that I’m not anti-homosexual even though I’m anti-homosexuality.
So there is something to dispel, at least with regards to true Christianity. We do love sinners, though we don’t love sin. God knows we all are sinners in our own rights.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts in particular Ben, glad you’re not afraid to share them.
In a nutshell: I get frustrated that when Christians ( nowadays) talk about porn addiction they say ” that’s a sin… You should really get over that.” but when homosexuality comes up all of the sudden we ” aren’t judging” and ” should be loving everyone”.
I do get upset because I think that there is great injustice being done to a people group in our society and that that injustice stems in western Christianity.
I don’t think it’s a sin. Robi: you probably feel my view needs healing. Do
you not? The same works in reverse. It’s what I believe. So of course I think the people who disagree with me are wrong ( on that specific topic). I don’t see what’s wrong with that.
As I was trying to say, my only problem with the post is the part about christians trying to dispel what homosexuals think of them. I really think that the only thing homosexuals think about christians is ” christians aren’t accepting of my life style” and if Christians still aren’t accepting of their
lifestyle then there is nothing to dispel.
B.D. I really appreciated your post and felt it was clear where you stand, and I agree. So, Ben you also make your position clear and I don’t agree. My question with your last post would then be once someone made their stance on homosexuality very clear you shifted and even kind of apologized for derailing the post saying you liked the original article, which kind of felt like an effort at peace and love yet I can’t help but say it felt like you just couldn’t end there adding your jab and somewhat condescending thoughts that potentially tell me that you view everyone that doesn’t hold to your stand that homosexuality isn’t a sin doesn’t view scripture right and that view needs healing whereas you view scripture right and don’t need healing in how you see it. We all see through a mirror dimly, we all have logs in our eyes…I posit the one thing we do know is God is love! Maybe you mean we all including yourself need time and healing…I hope that one is it…it is hard to not be defensive and reactive I guess but it seems like people were trying to be careful in their naming of sin and trying to define their terms and well were talking about ways to love better…
For those who are interested: http://www.amazon.com/Slaves-Women-Homosexuals-Exploring-Hermeneutics/dp/0830815619
Sorry I derailed the crap out of this post. I liked the original article. I do think it’s best that we love homosexuals the best we can while we wait for time to heal our “scripture problems” just like it did for slavery and women.
It is ignorance when you speak for a community, because you have no idea what their views are. I have many gay friends and my brother is gay, but I would never speak for their community, because I don’t know what it is like to be a part of that community. I can only speak from my own perspective as a voice for that community, so if that is what you are doing then please make that clear.
I think part of the evangelical difficulty in how to respond to homosexuals is tied into our uncomfortability with vows of chastity, those who’ve chosen to embrace singleness as a part of pursuing the kingdom. In Jesus we have the statement that some will be eunuchs on account of the Kingdom, and in Paul we have the statement that it is better for Christians to be single if they can handle it. If we held this in higher esteem, we’d have a better image of people who’ve put their sexuality aside to pursue Jesus.
As it stands, we allow too much of our view of who we are as people to be based on our sexuality or our relationality, and when defining identity by these terms, your(Ben’s) argument makes perfect sense to me. (By the way, hi Ben-we’ve never met. I’m B.D. I’m from Portland)
I however am left with the uncomfortable position of being faithful to the teaching of scripture which doesn’t leave room for much else of a view than to view homosexual sex as sin. But I’d challenge that it is indeed possible to love someone despite their sexual ethics. For instance I am friends with a number of single folks who sleep around all the time. I disagree with their choice to have sex outside of marriage but by no means does that mean I reject them as people. Human identity just isn’t defined by an action.
I’m sympathetic towards your view though. I really am. I just see no way to deal faithfully with scripture and arrive there. So my take is to love those people unconditionally and to do good to them, but if they need to ask what I think in terms of the Bible and sin, I will be quite straight forward. And it sure ain’t a comfortable stance to take, that’s for sure.
what Im trying to say is Andrew is bold. He is following the Spirit against many of the similar people in his own “community” of Christians. The great way tell this is that he is serving Christ in his acts and in turn that is a benefit to the LGBT community as well as the Christians. Most of us cant move past our own comforts or fears to serve even our own community, just ask the pastor what the collection plates have looked like recently 😛 and imagine what our egos look like…
I struggle with how to approach this same topic. When it boils down to it, on any topic, I love the Lord first, then look at his commands, and then I TRY my best to GO and love.
What I fear most of us do, is we dont ever GO anywhere with our fears. If we are struggling with an issue then God is most likely calling a very particular issue into light and these stones need His hammer in order to shape according to His will. I believe this is what Andrew has done. He (thought the power of the holy spirit) felt the conviction to actually SERVE a particular identity of people. and when your following your calling and your using love as your guide in Christ you can bet that God has a plan and that purpose will be fulfilled.
again, who knows, maybe Andrew was only meant to read the book about mother Teressa and meet that man on the bus. Either way he has obviously been used as a tool of the Spirit to spread the Love of Jesus.
that is life changing testimony.
Actually I would indeed speak for a community that im not a part of. Wether they were gay, Muslim, Christian or purple. If I thought they were being treated unjustly I would stand hope I would stand up for them. I dont think that’s ignorant.
Speaking for humanity. I’m part of that community.
If one is not a part of a certain community, then one should not be speaking for them, because they really don’t know what that community needs or feels. That is a gigantic generalization about the LGBT community. Generalizations like that is just sheer ignorance.
But we aren’t talking about loving someone who likes brussel sprouts when you dont. We are talking about a person, who they are, how they were born, how they define themselves. The LGBT community doesn’t need and probably dosen’t want your love when you disagree with who they are at their core. What they need from the christian community is a voice and someone to stand up for them within christianity. Not ambiguity.
Ben, do you ever disagree with anyone but still love them? It happens daily in a pluralistic culture and I happen to live in tensions like that in my life almost daily. Why is that so difficult for you to conceptualize? For me, it is possible for me to disagree about homosexuality and still love. I disagree with people about Islam and love. I disagree with conservatives/liberals/blah/blah/blah/fill in the black but can still love. I still do love. I disagree with you one this topic and still love you. That is the beauty and wonder of the Gospel.
That is one of the challenges for the Christian in a pluralistic society…a society where there are varying beliefs, values and interpretations. I have to figure out how to be civil and loving with people who don’t necessarily share my perspective. What you, it seems, want is for me and/or others who have contrary, yet deeply held conviction (regardless of the issue) to just surrender my conscious, rollover and agree. Sorry, that is not how life (or our society) works.
Yeah, exactly, every thing that Freud said but add that God did it and you have my beliefs. 🙂
I cannot stand this “on the fence” “never tell anyone what you actually think so you can sell more books and not have your church walk out on you” rhetoric of the “hip” and “emergent” pastors and authors of our generation. These thinkers wants to tell gay people that they love em AND that they don’t think they are doing anything wrong but are afraid their mom(or flock) is going to find out and be mad.
If you (people in general) think its a sin to be a homosexual, just say so! Don’t hide behind this whole “We aren’t going to judge” garbage that you didn’t care two hoots about when you were holding your anti porn conferences. (You are anti that right?)
Love ya back.
What gets in the way of love for many Christians is the arguing of semantics–or getting caught up in the morality issue. I think the Church has made it very clear about it’s stance on the issue, so now it’s time to do work about it–LOVE. Leave judgement at the door and be prepared for uncomfortable conversations. And, yeah Noah, the double-standard is infuriating!
Thanks for the blog Noah. I think you are asking the right questions. It is a complex issue and many want a reductionistic solution. I don’t think we, as Christians should ever posture ourselves as “anti…anything” (that is except maybe Satan or Ben). Like we talked today in class…love has to be the directional flow of our lives.
Ben: I am not defined by my sexuality…maybe Freud would agree with you on that, but I do not. I think that is not only a fragile location from ones identity, but sadly misplaced. Sorry, I disagree with you once again….I still love you though
What are the people that think its a sin doing other than thinking its a sin?
I don’t think it is a sin (just to clear up any confusion).
I suppose that what I said needs further clarification. I don’t think that we’re disagreeing on issues of the morality of homosexuality; instead, what I’m trying to get at is issues of respect and attitude toward missional living with regard to this specific subculture.
I think that the Church’s position on homosexuality has been made abundantly clear, at least within the evangelical segment that it seems that we’re both a part of.
I’m more interested in the specific treatment and the double standard that seems to exist in the attitude toward homosexuality amongst those who agree that is a sin.
Anti-homosexuality is anti-homosexual individual. LGBT individuals are defined by their respective LGBT just like anyone else is defined by their sexuality.
“At the top of his list of negative perceptions of Christianity is that it is anti-homosexual, a view held by 91 percent of the participants in the survey described in his book. ”
IT (yourgoodolestandardevangelicalamericanchristianity) IS! And if you aren’t- you should say so!
You cannot be pro homosexual if you are anti homosexuality. We MUST get over this.
My contention wasn’t that Christianity as a whole should approve of homosexuality, but rather that the GLBT community as a whole has taken a lot of heat from Christians in a way that is distinctly un-Christlike. Anti-homosexual in this context was intended to mean against gay and lesbian individuals, rather than any statement about the morality of homosexuality.
But i mean… Christianity is anti homosexual. Sooooo…